written
by Mathew Naismith
The
following discussion is long and tedious and at times bitter but what the
outcome of this discussion produces, is amazing to say the least. The
discussion is based on my last post, "Putting
Consciousness Into Perspective", but is primarily to do with consciousness
being able to exist outside of the human brain. Also, some of the links I
supplied might be of interest to some people.
Please bare with me, I have to prompt some
people in opposition to my ideas at times to get the truth out in the open, I'm
not interested in untruths. Prompting means to incite a discussion that tells
of the opposing parties true intentions. I'm very good at this and it does take
me to be tough on a person at times, basically, tough love. I wouldn't call this a pleasant discussion
by far but at times we need to put up with the unpleasantries to get to what is
pleasant for us, the world the way it is, is a good indication of this.
Reply
Consciousness is not "the
mental action or process of acquiring knowledge", though knowledge may be
acquired while conscious.
There is no "physical
consciousness". Consciousness is a pattern within, or functioning of, a
physical brain.
Consciousness is not "the act
of acquiring awareness". That is the act of becoming conscious itself.
"The mental aspect is the same in the
physical as it is of the non-physical, the only difference is, the physical
existence needs a brain to process these mental actions and processes, the
non-physical doesn't need a brain, it works with the mind"
No, consciousness is the functioning of a
physical brain. There is no "non-physical" consciousness that does
not need a brain.
A brain is still a brain without a mind. It
just isn't functioning. But a mind is not a mind without a brain.
Consciousness is not a "non-physical
entity". It is not an entity at all. it is a state of a mind.
Let's put this simply, without any
"woo"...
The mind is the functioning of a brain.
Consciousness is an emergent property of a
complex brain.
Easy-peasy. Nothing mysterious about it.
My Reply
There are a number of dictionary
interpretations that say otherwise Bruce, but all these kinds of interpretation
denote is a physical perspective over and above a non-physical perspective.
"A brain is still a brain without a
mind. It just isn't functioning. But a mind is not a mind without a
brain."
So how do ghosts/spirits interact in a
physical existence when they don't themselves have a physical brain? The only
way you could answer this is state that ghosts don't exist when they obviously
do. Science studies have proven that the mind exists outside the body.
You put the physical before the
non-physical therefore you will never be able to comprehend what I am talking
about, you have proven the points I made in the post Bruce.
Your in a box and this box is labeled
physical, that is all you can perceive because you are in this box, easy-peasy,
nothing complicated about this.
People like myself are out of that box you
labeled physical, therefore, we our perspectives and perception are much
broader than the box labeled physical.
Bruce, in a million years you will never
WANT to see this will you? If you are happy existing in your box, that's good
as I am happy existing outside your box labeled physical.
What, stating facts instead of
fiction Bruce. It is well known in psychology that we do indeed put ourselves
within a box and this is where we perceive from, of course the box gives us a
bias perspective as you have quite clearly displayed here Bruce. There is a
much bigger world outside the box Bruce.......
Reply
You stated fiction, not facts.
Fantasy, not reality.
I stated facts. I described both mind and
consciousness in simple terms. Both of my descriptions are empirically
supported. Yours are not.
It is well known
in psychology that we do indeed put ourselves within a box and this is where we
perceive from
So what?
of course the
box gives us a bias perspective as you have quite clearly displayed here Bruce
You've yet to demonstrate that. All you've
demonstrated is that you can't defend your ideas.
There is a much
bigger world outside the box Bruce.
I'm glad you've noticed. Why don't you come
out and play with all the rational intelligent people?
My Reply
The dictionary interpretations I
read contradict your own for starters. So according to you, dictionaries are
fictional......!!!
Through a number of science experiments
conducted, they have concluded that the mind does indeed exist outside of the
body but there is no way you will comprehend this Bruce, this is inevitable as
no doubt you will prove. Can you now see the box you are trying to perceive the
rest of existence through?
Anyone for starters who clearly states that
dictionary's are fictional, are certainly existing in a box Bruce.
Reply
Please provide a link to the
"dictionary definitions" you used.
I just think your dictionaries are fictional.
Through a number
of science experiments conducted, they have concluded that the mind does indeed
exist outside of the body
No, they have not. Now you are just
flat-out lying.
Are you ever going to get around to
defending your ideas? I'm getting tired of waiting. One might almost conclude
that you cannot....
...and I see you've spammed this to
a dozen different communities. What a dick move.
My Reply
Word web, consciousness: An alert
cognitive state in which you are aware of yourself and your situation
Being that consciousness is obviously
cognitive, cognitive interpretation is as follow, " The mental action or
process of acquiring knowledge and understanding through thought, experience,
and the senses."
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/cognition
Now I know for a fact you will screw this
around but consciousness is being cognitive, this is a fact Bruce.
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/consciousness
"The state of being aware of and
responsive to one’s surroundings: "
I think a cognition relates to being aware
would you not? You made the mistake in not thinking in terms of cognitive did
you not Bruce? Big mistake.......Consciousness, an alert cognitive state, so
what you are saying is consciousness isn't a cognitive state, obviously?
Now for my evidence of the mind being able
to exist outside of the physical brain.
https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiPkKX_ha7NAhUGJKYKHSF7B-8QFggeMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ukapologetics.net%2F07%2Fmindandbody.htm&usg=AFQjCNF_gczwScwjo4FjTlX0No-2eLj5Fw&sig2=x5kSYKZVlQ9K1uSAjq2Cag
http://www.learning-mind.com/quantum-theory-proves-that-consciousness-moves-to-another-universe-after-death/
http://themindunleashed.org/2014/03/brain-create-consciousness.html
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/biocentrism/201112/does-the-soul-exist-evidence-says-yes
http://www.oddee.com/item_98822.aspx
http://humansarefree.com/2015/07/scientific-proof-of-reincarnation-yes.html
So if I'm lying and unintelligent, unlike
yourself of course, all these far more intelligent people than you are also
lying according to your obvious bias perception? You have once again proven
that you do indeed exist in a box labelled physical.
In a million years my friend, you will not
concede you are wrong in any sense, this will be obvious in your replies. Get
out of your box Bruce, it's making you look awfully stupid my friend.
By the way, I can, in time, produce future
links to state how much of a liar I'm not and how ignorant you are if you like.
Reply
"Word
web, consciousness: An alert cognitive state in which you are aware of yourself
and your situation"
...which is not how you defined it in your
post. As I pointed out in my first reply.
"Now I know
for a fact you will screw this around but consciousness is being
cognitive"
Nope.
Consciousness is cognitive.
Learning is cognitive.
That does not mean that Consciousness is
learning. That's a logical fallacy.
Consciousness is the state of being aware.
Cognition is the state of learning.
Learn the definitions of the words you use.
"Now for my
evidence of the mind being able to exist outside of the physical brain."
Peer-reviewed research, please. And present
your argument. I don't debate with links. Demonstrate you understand what they
are saying.
"So if I'm
lying and unintelligent, unlike yourself of course"
I'm more honest than you, and far smarter.
I await your peer-reviewed research
demonstrating mind/body dualism...
My Reply
It would seem we are going to
continue is this charade.
Try to be conscious without being
cognitive, you're actually saying a consciousness can. Consciousness is being
cognitive. It is also obvious you didn't know this because you should have
mentioned it earlier but you didn't.
What I explained what consciousness is, is
correct because I didn't say the definition of consciousness did I, I only
stated consciousness did I not? Your not very observant Bruce, that bloody box
again!!
By the way, there is a big difference
between definition and interpretation but of course you don't know this either
it would seem. Get out of that box Bruce...
So being aware through being conscious
isn't learning through being aware!!
"I'm more honest than you, and far
smarter'.
So calling people names is a sign of
intelligence Bruce, I don't think so especially when that name calling isn't
backed up with evidence as I have produced.
"I await your peer-reviewed research
demonstrating mind/body dualism..."
So on all the info I supplied from far more
intelligent people than you or I, even if you don't think so, this is your
reply, your kidding me aren't you.......!!
Because you are far smarter than I, you
demonstrate that you know what they are stating. I think my post certainly
demonstrates that I know what they are stating but you won't ever have this
will you?
Bruce, give us sound evidence that I lied,
good luck on this because I have already proven otherwise haven't I? But not to
anyone in a box....
Bruce, it's not a good idea confronting
people like myself like you have here, all you have proven is how bias and
unobservant you are as of anyone stuck in a box would be.
You absolutely have no idea what I am
talking about Bruce which again proves my point about the box. You have proven
how unobservant you are as you have proven how observant I am and that my
friend is a fact. You of course won't see this either sadly enough
Interpretation: A mental representation of
the meaning or significance of something
Definition: A concise explanation of the
meaning of a word, phrase or symbol
There is a huge difference in their
meaning. I stand by my explanation, cognitive represents consciousness as
consciousness is represented by a cognitive factor.
Once again, give us evidence I lied Bruce,
at least give us this.....
Reply from another member
Play
nice everyone ;)
I personally find your different perspectives very interesting and thank you
both for engaging.
My Reply
Everyone's perspectives are interesting but I don't think
Bruce thinks this, I suppose that's why he stooped to name calling.
What's interesting is that one of us is
calling the other person names when replying to them, while the other person
has always used the persons actual name when in reply.
I think my physical pain is getting to me,
too much typing in a short time space which makes the discussion even more
interesting.
I might have to apologise to Bruce, I have
been a little rough on him but it has been interesting, it confirms my
perceptions and perspectives in a number of different ways unbeknownst to
Bruce.
It's very interesting what that box has
created, this is the illusion being that all we are is this box.
Reply from another member
I'm really just learning about all
this, but I'm always ready to hear arguments on any side.
I will reiterate to you both, though, to
please be civil where you attack the contention, not the person.
My Reply
You and me both otherwise I
wouldn't bother acknowledging Bruce.
I should ease up on Bruce, I've prompted
him way too many times but it's been interesting all the same.
My follow up reply
Conventional science readily admits
(insists) that the brain is made of the same particles that constitute
everything else in the universe: rocks, chairs, comets, meteors, galaxies.
According to conventional physicists, these particles are not conscious.
Therefore, there is no reason to conclude the brain is conscious. The brain has
no more ability to spawn consciousness than a rock does. End of story. End of
proof. You’re welcome. Of course, a few scientists will argue (and many more
will privately believe) that, since we humans ARE conscious, this proves the
brain is producing consciousness—because, where else could we look for an
explanation? Which is called circular reasoning. Meaning: you already assume
what you’re trying to prove. Any first-semester logic student would mark that
argument INVALID. Some scientists, suddenly invoking a brand of mysticism they
otherwise deplore, claim the unique complex configuration of particles called
the brain somehow—in this one case—has a capacity to break every rule in the
book and deliver consciousness. But no proof, just faith. Supposition.
_________________________
To me, to take a solid unwithering stand
that consciousness can't possibility ever exist outside the brain, is an
indication of utter blind faith, a consciousness entrapped in a box of dogmatic
beliefs and concepts based purely on bias. Consider this, how would a
consciousness entrapped in a box behave otherwise but bias and bias to the
extreme. This sounds awfully like I'm talking about an extremist religious
ideology but I'm not, I'm speaking of the bias and extremism of science........
I however don't exactly agree in the
statement that certain physicists state that consciousness is in rocks, trees
and so forth, I once read that these physicists state that everything has a
form or kind of consciousness, meaning, not everything has a consciousness like
humans for example but I could be incorrect in this. Basically, this article
supports my scientifically supported suppositions and conjectures in regards to
my post.
_________________________
The
discussion is continuing which in my mind isn't worth mentioning, the following
is my last sensible reply in regards to this discussion.
_________________________
This is interesting, our discussion has
been primarily on the physical aspects of consciousness, basically, a
consciousness that is cognitive, cognition being "The psychological result
of perception and learning and reasoning" (Word Web).
In my post, I had a different
interpretation of non-physical consciousness than of cognition for a very good
reason, that reason being that not all non-physical consciousness is cognitive
for the pure fact such consciousness isn't psychologically represented. I'm not
about to go into this to why this is so on here.
What I am stating also is that awareness,
which obviously takes a consciousness of some kind, is of learning, even when
the physical conscious mind is unaware, the physical, and most likely
non-physical, unconsciousness is aware. So while we are asleep, unconscious, we
are not suppose to be aware and learning? This seems to be what is being stated
by certain people here, even when we are physically unconscious, we are still
learning because we are still aware be it in a different format. Has anyone
heard of sleep learning to begin with?
Another point to make here is the way we
analyse, if I was to totally pull apart a human body and totally segregate each
part from the other, would we still call these segregated parts a human as
opposed of being of a human. It's no longer a human especially when we
segregate it, it's of parts of a human.
What some people are doing here in this
discussion is the same, segregate everything and only mention what they want to
acknowledge and still call it a holistic analysis. Not once has anyone of the
opposing view to mine analysed the info I have given holistically. Certain
people within science and spiritualty do the same if they want or desire a
certain outcome other than what the holistic approach will produce/create. This
is well known in the circles of psychology and quantum physics to occur.
I could pull apart any fact and turn it
into fiction, this is fact, the question is, would I be deceptive in doing so?
Obviously......How often is factual life turned into fiction and of course
visa-versa? This is one reason people like me can see through blatant deception which is usually created by a consciousness
being bias while stuck in a box.
My box analogy is certainly being proven
here.
Extract:Aspect and his team
discovered that under certain circumstances subatomic particles such as
electrons are able to instantaneously communicate with each other regardless of
the distance separating them. It doesn't matter whether they are 10 feet or 10
billion miles apart.
Where is the physical brain when two
subatomic particles can communicate with each other over a long distance? Communication
takes consciousness because one consciousness has to be aware of another consciousness
to be able to communicate, in other words, self-awareness. This of course won't
make any difference to a bias consciousness, this is going to be evident.
________________________
Human
consciousness has always evolved, just because we think we have found the right
box, were not allowing human consciousness to evolve any further!! As human
history quite plainly shows, there is no right box, only evolution......we are
meant to evolve even if that means evolving into an entirely different species
or entities.
I
again apologise for the length and disposition displayed in this
post.......